Spiritual Spotlight Series
Welcome to the Spiritual Spotlight Series—a sanctuary for seekers, sensitives, and soul-led explorers. Each week, we illuminate the voices of spiritual teachers, energy healers, mystics, coaches, witches, and visionaries whose lived experiences awaken something ancient within us.
This isn’t just another spiritual podcast—it’s a mirror for your becoming.
Through raw conversations, sacred transmissions, and mystical storytelling, you'll be invited into the deeper dimensions of healing, intuition, and soul remembrance. From bridging science and spirituality to decoding your dreams, past lives, and divine calling, we hold space for every path of awakening.
Whether you're newly awakening or have walked the path for lifetimes, these episodes offer grounded insight, multidimensional wisdom, and spiritual nourishment for your evolution.
Here, we don’t just talk about transformation—we embody it.
Spiritual Spotlight Series
Your Discomfort Is a Portal: Dreamwork and Soul Healing with Lincoln Stoller
What happens when a physicist turns inward? In this transformative conversation, psychotherapist and consciousness explorer Lincoln Stoller shares his evolution from the rigid world of analytical science into the vast terrain of inner healing, mysticism, and human potential.
From summiting literal mountains to diving into the subconscious terrain of dreams, Lincoln invites us to reframe discomfort—not as something to escape, but as a powerful portal to healing. Through stories of cultural immersion, nighttime visions, and grounded practices like walking meditations, he reminds us how presence and curiosity can dissolve our inner limitations.
This episode isn’t just about ideas—it’s an invitation to stretch the edges of your consciousness. Whether you're craving deeper meaning, navigating personal transformation, or seeking soulful tools to break free from old patterns, this episode will move you.
💫 Let Lincoln’s wisdom awaken your own. Your discomfort might just be the dream whispering your next step.
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Hello everyone, welcome to our Spiritual Spotlight Series. Today I am joined by Lincoln Stoller. He is a clinical counselor, psychotherapist and neuropsychologist who's authored a lot of books on sleep, dreams, hypnosis, education and architecture. Thank you so much for coming on Spiritual Spotlight Series. How are you doing today?
Speaker 2:I'm fine.
Speaker 1:I have to say I don't think I've ever asked anyone that question when I started an interview and I I apologize for springing that on you, so I'm just going to jump right in. So your background is incredibly diverse, from quantum physics to mountaineering to psychotherapy. What was the defining moment or realization that led you to shift from physics a world of healing and consciousness?
Speaker 2:You know who knows. But when I go back to think of what put me in this direction, my earliest memory is something I think in kindergarten, when I was taken to a one of these sort of cosmos movies and I saw something I don't remember much, but you know the stars and the galaxies, and it kind of made me realize that these boundaries that I had in the world were kind of artificial and that there were things outside them, because as a kid your boundary is your house and your family and a little few other sort of steps. And I started, I guess, at that point. I don't want to say that I was a genius or I was particularly precocious. I never quite understood why no one else was interested. But you know, I started wondering about bigger things. So I got interested in physics and you know you well, maybe you don't know, but no one is very good at teaching an advanced subject at an introductory level. So you don't learn anything about physics in high school. Or well, I learned a little bit about chemistry and then you don't even know what you're learning, whether it's enough at the time, because who knows? So, for example, I never learned how to write.
Speaker 2:I went through all of college and I never learned how to write and I didn't know. I didn't know how to write. It was sort of funny because I went to University of California for my senior year. I was going to enter as a visiting student and they failed me because I didn't know how to write. And I thought what? And so I got tutored by you know, just a student in writing. So I got tutored by you know, just a student in writing. And again it's like, oh my God, there's more to the skill of writing and the world than I knew. So you know, that's been my story.
Speaker 1:It's like, whatever box you put me in, I want to break out of it. So what led you then to a world of healing and consciousness.
Speaker 2:Well, it's because I'm trying to figure out what this boundary is.
Speaker 1:And break the box.
Speaker 2:Yeah, is this, you know, a soggy paper boundary? Is this a hard steel boundary? And I only know what I can break myself through, although you're not quite sure, having done crazy things. And so you start asking other people, and I found it. I guess I'd say the only really valuable thing I've found in my life has been interactions with other people. I mean, physics is great, but we'll make so what? Right? And you know you'd kind of say the same about math. Oh well, that's fascinating. You know puzzles, solving incredible structures, but like so what? So?
Speaker 1:I find that interesting. I will say that because I'm a registered nurse and in my day life I run a doctor's office and I do have the same kind of feelings about math.
Speaker 2:I'm like whatever whatever there are ways to use it, but, of course, be involved.
Speaker 1:Of course. So you took up mountaineering at a young age and planned your own expedition expeditions. What do these adventures teach you about resilience, fear and the limits of human potential um, I don't know.
Speaker 2:Those are all big questions. We could spend a lifetime on each of them. I am spending a lifetime on each of them, but um you?
Speaker 2:know, I think the things that I learned. You know if you want. I think the things that I learned you know if you want to prioritize. The things that I learned were, uh, commitment and integrity, because in mountaineering you have to have commitment to a project, otherwise you just turn around and go home, which was the sane thing to do, and you have to have a kind of integrity to your partners because they're depending on you. And you have to have a kind of integrity to your partners because they're depending on you and you have to be there because if you're not, then they're not going to hang around with you either.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so, and you learn it at a much higher level because you really are hanging it out, and a lot of people me included well, not everybody, but are sort of risk takers, and so we like risk and we like novelty and we're not easily scared and we like frightening things, I guess, although that's, you know, not terrifying but challenging. So you know we take it as a challenge, right, try to prevail. So that whole experience was so much higher than anything I had experienced in family or school that it I mean I'm only realizing it now that I'm almost 70 that it projected me to a higher level and it sort of explains why I could never really relate to anybody else, like I remember putting pictures of my summer mountaineering adventures up in the high school library window and no one said anything. It's like they were just like abstract art. Nobody, because I didn't.
Speaker 2:I never saw a mountain. I lived on the East Coast. What was a mountain? It was like abstract art. Nobody, because I didn't. I never saw a mountain. I lived on the East Coast. What was a mountain? It was like a hill. So you know the idea. You know there's that old story that, like when the Columbus landed in Florida, the Indians looked out and they saw these strange things that were boats, but they never saw them before, so they didn't know what they were.
Speaker 2:Right, yeah, Well, that's what it was Right yeah, well, that's what it was, things with mountains. It's like I did all this stuff and people said huh. So I started to realize that the only people I could talk to were the ones who did it.
Speaker 1:Wow.
Speaker 2:And that kind of. So, as you can see, it does kind of come around to like now I talk to people about the things that are important to them.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:And it's greatly reassuring and invigorating. And I don't talk about math or science or mountaineering, I talk about what they do.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:I do get perhaps more mileage if we have a common ground, but I'm still intrigued, intrigued and you know it does, it does come around to spirit, but we'll get there.
Speaker 1:It does, it does. That's so you grew up on the east coast and now I'm on the east coast and I think we have mountains. But now I'm thinking we don't like, we just have hills, like I'm in the adirondacks, and I'm like old hills, those are just hills, guys, that's not. So now I'm gonna have to look up where you you've mountaineered and I can't speak english, but wow, they're just hills, that I'm the things you can't climb up.
Speaker 2:Hills are the things you can climb up, you know walk up, yeah, carefully.
Speaker 1:So, from throat singing in magnolia to ayahuasca ceremonies in south america, you've explored a wide range of cultural and spiritual practices. Were there any profound spiritual awakenings or insights that came from some of these experiences?
Speaker 2:Well, of course, but at different levels. So the most oh. So here's the story. God, what was the?
Speaker 2:Psychedelics had this brief popularity in the 60s. That was crushed and it was kind of squandered and not very serious, although there was some serious science that had started, but that was also crushed. So it all went out the window for the next 40 years. And then it started to reappear culturally. You know, there was some talk about psychedelic mushrooms, but it was illegal. And then there was this talk about psychedelic mushrooms, but it was illegal. And then there was this talk about psychedelics in other cultures. I mean, not that much talk, but I heard about it. So it wasn't legal here but it was legal there in the other countries. So there was people that were, you know, bringing shamans to North America and surreptitiously offering ceremonies and there was some psychedelic tourism, but not much in the you know turn of the century.
Speaker 2:So around 1995, I got involved with that. Why have I got involved with that? And that's, you know, if you've ever had an altered state experience, which almost everybody has, whether it's because you weren't watching the traffic and all of a sudden, you know, I know that's an altered state experience. You know, you got to settle down after a while. Sit down, compose yourself and then sleep is an altered state experience which we largely overlook but not everybody. And meditation and prayer and that whole variety of ecstatic experience are altered state and pain and illness and love and hate, and being a parent and being a child I mean these are all. When you look at them, they're all separate mindsets and you can sort of move between them. You know it's important to regain your childhood view and understand the elders and so forth.
Speaker 2:So going to different cultures is wonderful, I mean everybody should do it and it's really not that hard. But it's hard to be welcomed when you cross cultural boundaries. So you know you can always go and sit down to the, you know, with a hobo or the bum on the street and they'll talk to you all day. But it wouldn't be easy to do. It would be great, and you know. And so you could do it. In certain context, though, if you were a health care worker, you might feel that you could do it all right. As a nurse, you can talk to people about their illnesses without feeling that you're violating their boundaries. So as a cultural visitor you can sometimes do it.
Speaker 2:I have to say. Here's another thing I did, and anyone can do this. I wanted to go to Costa Rica and see the country, but I didn't want to be in part of a fancy resort. So I called the fancy resort and I got the name of their taxi driver. And I called their taxi driver and asked him for the name of his parents. And then called their taxi driver and asked him for the name of his parents. And then I called his parents and I asked them would they like to host me in their country?
Speaker 2:right, so they say yes yes, they gave me a room and they fed me food for two weeks and then their son, the taxi driver, came and took me around to visit all their family throughout the country and the chiquita banana plantation and their gay uncle who raised bees in the jungle, and it's like it was so wonderful it's amazing nothing right what a great idea.
Speaker 2:Anybody could do that. You could go anywhere and do that. Uh, if you spoke the language and even if you don't? I've tried, but I wasn't so successful. I went to norway and tried to do that, but I don't speak norwegian, so it right I'm like um excuse me, need my google translate hold please I didn't have one then, but anyway.
Speaker 2:So culture is really great and, um, you know, I I did these cultural, ceremonial, psychedelic experiences, yeah, and it would have been even nicer if I could have just been part of the family and I was actually. An important part of my history which kind of gets overlooked is that I had a girlfriend who was an anthropologist, not a psychologist anthropologist, not a psychologist anthropologist and she did the extensive work that was necessary to get access to a remote tribe.
Speaker 2:Wow because, they don't want outsiders coming right because there's a lot of exploitation and crime and running through their territory anyway. So she got the permission, took her a year and then I just floated right in. So, you know, I was able to live when the isolated uh, I don't know what you want to call a non-technical tribe. You know they didn't have the only, the only technical things they had were guns and outboard motors. Wow, because they used those things, everything else, everything else. They just did with the land, wow. And so I lived with those people for a because they used those things.
Speaker 1:Everything else was a piece of clothing, everything else they just did with the land. Wow.
Speaker 2:And so I lived with those people for a month and you know it was wonderful and they were the most insightful people because they had to be on point all the time.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Just you know, being a kind of caffeine cloud driving to work. They always had to be aware, so it just even you know. Even that raises your consciousness without, and they didn't even use psychedelics.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Maybe they did, but it wasn't, you know, on the menu for me. So you know, that's, that's just wonderful stuff. I'm so lucky. Yeah, absolutely, I was able to do that.
Speaker 1:And you thought outside of the box that you don't want to be attached to, to be able to have those experiences.
Speaker 2:I didn't know I was getting into, but sounded interesting. You know, like Lawrence of Arabia or something. I mean you do have to be careful and like now, right now, that particular territory in Panama is more dangerous than before because of all the drug running going from Colombia. Right, yeah, I mean the story is that they didn't build a highway to South America because they didn't want cattle moved either across the boundaries, so that diseases, and so now there's this, you know, 100 miles of jungle, which just is just the Wild West. Right, and you have to be careful and I was lucky.
Speaker 1:You were lucky. That's amazing. That's amazing that you're able to have those experiences.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it was one. I'm, I'm blessed with that, but it I mean it goes, I mean spiritual. I keep thinking it's, it's, it's approaching the center of our conversation, because all of these interactions with people, whether it's psychotherapeutic or cultural, are ultimately spiritual, if they're going to be of any value.
Speaker 1:Right right, right right.
Speaker 2:Even if you know you don't speak Spanish very well or Norwegian or whatever it is. You know, I had a wonderful experience going to Mongolia where my friend who speaks English was going to meet me, but he was late and so I spent four days with his mother and father in Mongolia and I didn't speak Mongolian. They didn't speak English.
Speaker 2:And they took me around the town and I can't remember anything that we didn't say wow, I just, of course you can't remember much anyway, but you know, I just remember scenes and you know, and meals and people, and I just don't remember not communicating with them right right, though I never verbally did right, but you're still able to have that experience, even though you didn't speak the same language, because it was spiritual.
Speaker 2:In a sense, we were allies. Right, if we weren't allies we'd have a different experience. But and that's interesting too, you know, in the current state of affairs and all the enemies that exist in the world, that know, nothing about each other right.
Speaker 2:But then we're we live in a lot of fear because we choose not to learn a lot about each other yeah, you know there's that story about in world war one, where during christmas, the the two adversarial sides put down their guns and had a party, and you know, and then, when january first came around, all the superior officers told them to get back to killing each other. Um, it's like ridiculous, it's absurd anyway it is that's. That's how I got here I like that.
Speaker 1:So your work does delve into sleep and dreams. How do dreams act as a gateway to healing and self-discovery?
Speaker 2:Did you say how do they?
Speaker 1:How do they? I apologize how do dreams act as a gateway to healing and self-discovery?
Speaker 2:Well, I guess everyone has their opinion, but my opinion is that dreams are the exploration of all the things that don't make sense. I would agree with that, because this is the metaphor I use if you want to travel the territory that you don't know. It's not really useful to know the path from a to b, from where you are to where you want to get to, if you don't understand what's around that path. Because if all you know is the path, as anyone knows who's traveled through the woods, as soon as you get off the path, you're lost. Right, you could be one meter off the path and you could be, you head in the wrong direction. Now you're going to be two meters off the path right so you have to know the territory.
Speaker 2:You have to know what not only just what makes sense, what you're trying to accomplish, what step-by-step progress is toward your goal. You have to know what feels like the wrong thing, what things don't fit together and how you sense going in the wrong way. And to me, that's what dreams are the exploration of all the things that are disquieting and incommensurate and contradictory. And so we experience these dreams, and most dreams 70% are uncomfortable or somewhat, you know, anxiety producing, and I think that's the reason why people don't want to pay much attention to their dreams. It's like, oh, you know, that wasn't very good. I don't want to remember that.
Speaker 2:But if you take the different attitude, that this is the exploration of the territory that you need to know in order to know when you're lost, in order to have judgments and make discerning, correct discernments about things, I mean, how do you know who an enemy is if they're smiling at you? You, it's not enough. You have to go a little more than that, true, um? So so you have these dreams about people who smile at you with knives, you know, and and you start to appreciate being lost or I don't know how you want to describe it, the alternatives to what you want I mean, you don't want to explore them in real life?
Speaker 2:well, no, I mean we end up doing it right, you know eventually, right, we make a lot of wrong turns. But to explore them at greater depth, with greater safety, why not just create a reality and live right? That's what a dream is to me, right? So that's the therapeutic value. It's like oh, you actually start to learn. Well, you may learn wrong because you're kind of making it up, but it's the best you can do without putting your life at risk now let me ask you this and this is um kind of a segue I have noticed in this year.
Speaker 1:I didn't used to remember my dreams and now I'm remembering them and they're having more of a. I like the analogy of it's uncomfortable, because it is uncomfortable, but I'm also finding like there's pockets of wisdom within these dreams that I act upon. Are you finding that people are tapping more into wanting to remember their dreams and using those as maybe a gateway for conversation or healing or anything of that nature?
Speaker 2:I don't know if they would do it on their own, so I'd make them do it. I say you know what are your dreams, what are dreams? And they'll usually say well, I don't really remember my dreams. And I say I don't care, make it up and tell me a dream. Right, because often if you just remember the little bit of a dream, a little other bits sort of start trickling down right and I'm not sure how far that goes, because you spend hours dreaming and you only remember a pocket seconds.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:So I don't. I don't know if you could actually pull it all in and I don't know what point you just start making it up without even knowing.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:But I like to start there. Well, I don't want to start there. Sometimes I might end there, but I like to go there and say, well, you know, and then I mean, we're talking about kind of a therapy session here. The therapy sessions usually start with what's you know, what's happening Right and what's bothering you and what events transpired that are important, and so you get a kind of like current event, you know, front page view. And then you might, you know, go to page six and talk about some detail. And then I like to ask dreams, you know what are the dreams? And then they'll come in with some strange dream and I'll say, well, you know, that's kind of similar to something or else you've talked about.
Speaker 2:And they'll say, oh know, that's kind of similar to something, or else you've talked about and they'll say oh, I didn't see that, because I'm not really looking for the theme of the dream like a narrative.
Speaker 2:I'm just looking for the opposing parts of the dream right so like you're cold in the dream and you were feeling cold in this situation and you were anxious in the dream, you know it's like how was your dream life trying to put this together? And then how in your real life have you found? You know, you don't have as quite the liberty in real life as you do in dreams. And then the question is well, what if you did have free choice in dreams? And that's sort of getting to the area of lucid dreams, which I have a book on which people like, because I don't really think. I Think the whole idea of being lucid again, coming back to spirituality, is Is a spectrum you're not, you know, like is. Is this real, you and I no, I'm on a computer, looking at you on a little lcd screen, so that's not real. But we say, oh no, that's just a, that's just the technology. You're really looking at a person. Her name is rachel and you know she's got this story and appearance and right background, and it's all you know.
Speaker 2:If I saw elephants floating around your room, I'd start to wonder, oh, that's an interesting screensaver you've got. And you'd say, oh no, no, the elephants really are floating around. And then I'd start saying, am I awake? So I don't really think we're all that lucid ever. We're just like focused on, you know, stepping forward in a causal, predictable world, keeping it shut together and not, you know, flipping out. And then you could say well, Lincoln, you know, I know a lot of people who do flip out, and that's true.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:And I kind of get. My notion of spirit is basically what I learned from elders and children, and in between the elders and the children it's all full of shit. There's this grown up, you know, functional world that operates, produces money and products and material. That's the least spiritual.
Speaker 2:Yes, the kids are very intuitive and spiritual and the elders can be if they choose to be yeah, I would agree with that and um, you know, in between, I think you just have to act crazy, do a lot of stuff and meet a lot of people right and shape your experiences and and maybe get out of the bullshit if possible. Yeah, get out of it, get into it, be a leader, be a thought leader, an author, a therapist, a help, a parent yes, all these things.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so with your therapy. So you mentioned that therapy provides the tools to clarify one's path, turning it into coaching. How do you help clients move from healing into their personal empowerment, maybe getting out of?
Speaker 2:the bullshit, yeah, sort of it's. You know it's different. If I have a client who thinks they're crazy, I'll tend to say you're not so crazy, you know. It's just you have a different insight and maybe you're not applying it in a way that other people are responding to. And even if you really are crazy, that's delusional, like okay, take from it, you know, because your delusions are not coming from nowhere.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:You know you're being triggered by something.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:So I have a client who was a sort of he was delusional, he thought people were out to get him and attack him, and and he was a big guy, and so he ended up. He ended up getting, you know, handcuffed by the police because people were threatened and they'd call the police. And he's saying what's going on? I'm saying, well, look, you know, you're probably sensitive to what other people feel, but you're overreacting in a way that's not getting you you know, and you have other powers, and you have so, and there's other realities that are not the ones that you see.
Speaker 2:so, you know, start to understand more broadly and then for the same people, the high performance people, I'll say you're crazy or you're full of shit, or, you know, don't expect this to work out with your family, right, because because you know, I, I work with these high performance people and they're very demanding and very discerning and and like it's not going to work out for your six-year-old son, you know, you're just, it's going to be a train wreck if you right yeah and often those people are acceptable to that.
Speaker 2:because high performance if you're be a high-performance person, you have to have some thick skin. You do, you have to have some traction. You can't just get knocked into a ditch by everybody who criticizes you and then the you know. So that's the quick answer to your question is expand a person's boundary outside their comfort zone. But then it gets delicate because as you take a person outside their comfort zone, they get uncomfortable and they may start getting threatened and they may start getting uh, uh, have violent reactions, not, you know, not necessarily physically, but emotionally and verbally. And then the question is is that where they need to go? You know, have they built a life that's insulated them from that? Uh, and is that to their detriment? And is my job to push them through it, and to what extent?
Speaker 2:And I have to sort of protect myself because I get injured if I standing on, so you know somebody's gonna be left standing right and one of the things that I learned in all this, you know, life experience is or maybe I had it to begin with, I'm not sure, maybe it was genetic, you know stability. I'm a kind of stable person so that I can do destabilizing things and come back to the center. So I do that with my clients.
Speaker 1:I'll destabilize the stable ones, and I'll try to stabilize the unstable ones.
Speaker 2:And so then it says oh you know, then you might say oh well, lincoln, you've got a wonderful formula there. It's going to work always. But of course it doesn't, because when you take people out of their either stable or unstable comfort zones, they can get very anxious and upset, and of course the first target for everybody is whoever is in front of you right right, it's your fault.
Speaker 2:Um, whoever you are, you know my boss, the pedestrian, my therapist or my son, and that's pathetic, but it's true because you have. It's either that or you blame yourself, and then that becomes another problem right right and you're neurotic, so it's very delicate and I think you have to take it with a grain of humor.
Speaker 1:Ultimately, I would agree with that Definitely. If you can't, if you can't kind of attack these things with a little bit of humor, you're, you're set up for some sadness, unhappiness.
Speaker 2:And I think you can go further. You can look at life as I don't know, not necessarily humor Humor is great but you can also just look at it as wonder.
Speaker 1:I like that Sense of awe, sense of wonder.
Speaker 2:Yeah it's like Wow, that's crazy, you know. I mean, I've had a number of experiences where I was, you know, nearly killed, and I don't think I was premeditated. But at those moments, instead of being fearful, I was just in awe. You know, I said, wow, this may be my last three seconds, and I just like, I just said wow and I just watched the shit go past and I didn't get killed, and because of that the memories are not traumatic that's interesting.
Speaker 1:I mean they were.
Speaker 2:They were, uh, you know, falling from great heights. I, I'm looking around saying, wow, look at this.
Speaker 1:You know, um, I, I would have, by all rights, should have been terrified and traumatized, but you did say in the beginning that it seems like you didn't have a lot of fear of like kind of scary situations, and I find that interesting because as a child myself, my mom always used to tell me you're, you were born scared and you were scared of everything, and then like living a life overcoming being scared. So I think that's where I feel like we're on two different spectrums of where our fear is, and I find that interesting.
Speaker 2:I'm not sure you anyone couldn't overcome their fears. So if your fears were, I don't know what they were.
Speaker 1:They were dumb and I'm not sure anyone couldn't overcome their fears. So if your fears were, I don't know what they were.
Speaker 2:They were dumb. She said I was scared of ice cream.
Speaker 1:I was like, really Come on.
Speaker 2:What you think it was genetic.
Speaker 1:Where did you get that 100,? Okay, you know what? Let's jump in. I 100% think it was genetic. I think it came from my mom, who has multiple personalities and had a very tough life, and I think that got embedded into my cellular tissue and then when I came into being, it's been an interesting experience.
Speaker 2:So have you found a way to overcome it, or shepherd it, or somehow make it an asset?
Speaker 1:Yes, yes, I will say that I've like I think kind of like you just jump in, you just push past the uncomfortable feeling and you do it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I had a this. This quote keeps coming up. I read about this dream. It wasn't mine. Here's the dream I'm running away from. It's not me, it's the dream someone else's dream. I'm running away from this gorilla, this, you know, tremendous, monstrous gorilla, and it's chasing me and it's going to kill me. And at some point I realize I have to stop and face it. And I turn around and as I face the gorilla, it comes up and it turns into a man and it says to me you've got to be more careful about how you express yourself.
Speaker 2:That's interesting so there is this odd thing that, uh, what you're?
Speaker 1:most afraid of often isn't what you expect it to be.
Speaker 2:I would agree, inhaling liquids is always something one should be cautious about Okay.
Speaker 1:Thank you Go to that drink, rachel? Yeah, I would. Um, yeah, I would agree with you the things that maybe I was afraid of. I really wasn't and I think it's more of the unknown and, like you said, a stable person and an unstable person. I grew up in an unstable environment, which was interesting.
Speaker 2:But back to you. I mean I can't overgeneralize, but I like to generalize and say that a lot of people who grow up in difficult environments, well it's got to be qualified. Children who grow up in unstable, unsupportive environments can get very fucked up.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:And developmentally warped, yeah, unable to bond or trust, yeah, and it makes sort of rational sense, but it doesn't do well and it's very hard to overcome, if that's your mindset.
Speaker 1:I would agree.
Speaker 2:I would. I originally felt, you know, I was a physicist and a mountaineer and I, you know all strong and headstrong and stuff, not thinking about needing help, I mean whatever. So Coming to be a therapist was kind of a switch a big switch and I had to overcome the prejudice not just that people who needed help were weaker, but that I was somehow powerful by being a therapist, and I now appreciate and I'm serious that the people who seek help are usually the people who are more able to move forward.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:You know, it's a kind of like the positive side of vulnerability. If you're willing to work with the stuff you can't solve instead of walling yourself off from it, all the better for you.
Speaker 2:Absolutely off from it, all the better for you, absolutely so. I see my role as a therapist somewhat like a coach. It's like I mean the coach word is a little stilted. I mean you think of a crotch is like an athletic coach, you know, teaching you how to do it right. You know I I have a. Well, the first book I wrote, called the Learning Project, interviewed people of all ages and asked them how did they get to where they are and why? And I interviewed a great wrestling coach who talked about what it was what he did and why. And he worked with disadvantaged kids from poor, fucked up backgrounds yeah you know New York City area.
Speaker 2:And he said basically all I'm trying to do is get them to be the best that they can be.
Speaker 2:I like that you don't have to be a champion, but and he was famous for achieving that of elevating people to a higher level and he was doing it as a wrestling coach, a very, you know, pragmatic, middle-class guy from a whole middle-class Long Island community. He was an Olympic wrestler, so he actually did get to a very high level, but just listening to him and he didn't want to talk to me. He didn't want to talk to anybody because it was all philosophy. He wasn't about philosophy.
Speaker 2:Oh, wow he was about dealing with kids one-on-one, but he got convinced to speak to me because one of his students knew me. So it was a wonderful conversation between a reticent elder and me who's not a wrestler. So, um, that's a great book. But you know that whole the learning process, the therapy process, the vulnerability process, the spiritual process, right, they're all the same.
Speaker 1:Right, yeah, that's interesting. I think that's so interesting so you did kind of mention this before. So you have experienced a near death situation. You experienced it with COVID-19. How did that impact your perspective on life and healing and the work you do now?
Speaker 2:Well, I think it's hard to say. You know, the mountaineering experiences were kind of odd, right, you don't encounter those in every case I know. It's more like an auto accident, so it's a trauma. It's like how to deal with trauma. And then I'm also a grief therapist for alpinists who've lost partners. You know, people whose friends have died.
Speaker 1:Oh, that's interesting.
Speaker 2:It is interesting because, like from my point of view, death was either your partner's death or the parents of your partners who've died, but not other climbers who were dealing with their problems that aren't yours. So often in dealing with these people it's not that unusual, I guess, but it sounds funny the conversation never turns to the trauma. Oh, wow, it's. It's all about, you know, stability in life and getting our feet on the ground and and finding meaning in what we're doing. And then maybe the trauma comes up. But why bring it up unless you've got something that you can conclude? I mean, you don't want to just retraumatize yourself. What do I have to say about you know, and to think about, like veterans who not just have trauma but had horror, absolutely, and agony, right, why bring it up if you don't have somewhere better? You know it's like well, I go through the garbage unless you can't take the garbage out. So true, I just dig through the garbage. So I find myself dealing with positive things.
Speaker 1:There's going to be an interruption here. Hold on, that's okay, it's not a problem.
Speaker 2:The teenagers.
Speaker 1:Hi teenagers, I think it's interesting that you're talking about grief and I do want to ask this question, and maybe this is not something you hit upon and I apologize if it's not. My brother committed suicide a couple of years ago and I noticed that in the family we all were allowed different levels of grief. And have you noticed that within families, kind of like how some people are allowed to grieve and some are not to the extent of others, and how would you recommend they deal with that?
Speaker 2:I can't say because I haven't had direct experience with families, but my inclination would be just to be honest and yeah uh, well, mean it's like I do deal with relationships which are usually two people.
Speaker 1:Right right.
Speaker 2:And my advice is engage.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:And reveal, right, expose, explore and recognize that, even though you're in an adversarial situation, it could be all the more meaningful for that reason. I like that so often, when this is both humorous and common, that I'll deal with a relationship that needs to end. I mean, people are coming to me when the house is on fire right, right right and my advice is essentially get out of the house.
Speaker 2:Uh, and at that point I'll say to them now you have a real relationship with this person, now your relationship with them is permanent. Yeah, it's been branded onto your soul, right, right, and so that it may be inappropriate to hate them, or, um, because they're going to be continually educating you throughout the rest of your life absolutely as a counter example, but nevertheless, um, I mean this is those.
Speaker 2:one of the christian ideas of hell is not that it's where you go to be punished, but where you go to see all the crimes you've committed and take responsibility for them they're going to heaven and they have to like relive their life like and they're going through the lessons and I apologize, I can't remember the name of it that movie.
Speaker 1:I did not like that movie. I watched it at a very young age and I'm like I don't know that. So I tried to be like I'm so sorry I I messed up the dog. I'm so sorry I yelled at you like take ownership of my actions so so that's, you know, like, take ownership of my actions.
Speaker 2:So that's sort of an answer to your question. When people are in struggle and torment, well, this is like this wrestling coach said to me when one of my students is defeated on the wrestling mat, I don't go out and pat him on the back and say it's okay.
Speaker 1:I like that.
Speaker 2:I say I wait for him to pull himself together and I say what is it that we can learn from this? Right? You know what do we need to work on? How can we orient ourselves in this situation so that it's more positive next time?
Speaker 1:I like that.
Speaker 2:So, you know, could you do that to a person in distress? Could you do it? Well, see, you can't often do it to somebody who's hostile to you. So the question is, you've got to get rid of the hostility in order to get to a place. Well, another story is this client who's schizophrenic, who would always end up in handcuffs. He would said you know this? Uh, I threatened some guy who was threatening me and I said to him well, maybe he wasn't threatening you, maybe he was feeling threatened, right. And instead of, uh, grabbing him by the cuffs and shaking him the way you do, you should have said to him I see you're upset, can I help you? You know right. And then if you reframe the whole thing as not adversarial, grief, grief-threatening or violent, there'll be a whole different way you can proceed and be perceived.
Speaker 1:That's true.
Speaker 2:Because, look, this guy was a schizophrenic. He always had this dull, threatening. Look on his face.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:And that didn't help.
Speaker 1:The name of the movie is Defending your Life in case anyone's interested Defending your. Life. Meryl Streep sent it. It came out in 1990. If you watch the movie and you're like it's not so bad, that movie traumatized me, I will schedule a session with you to have a counseling session to discuss it.
Speaker 2:And there's that Robin Williams movie about the guy whose wife dies and then he kills himself, or he dies and she kills himself. Oh, that's it he dies and she kills herself. Oh, wow, and then he meets her in hell, because she went to hell, because she killed herself. Oh wow, but he abandons heaven and goes to hell To go down with her. Yeah, to help her, and it's full of wonderful CGI effects of you know flowers and stuff.
Speaker 2:It's a nice. It's a. It's a nice movie. I love anything with Robin Williams. Oh my gosh.
Speaker 1:He's amazing.
Speaker 2:So sad story yeah.
Speaker 1:But, but still, anything with him is just the best. Um, before I ask you the last question, if anyone is interested in learning more about you, uh, what is the best place for them to go to?
Speaker 2:well, as you mentioned, the website is big. It has one front page and then it has tabs to go to neuropsychology and mentoring and education, and everything books. You have books you have a lot of books on there.
Speaker 1:You've got like everything biofeedback.
Speaker 2:You have a lot, which is amazing so, uh, I mean, the other thing I have is I have a blog which you can get through to, the website which is called mind, strength, balance dot com and the blog. They're all long articles and you could look them up by topic. Nice, if that helps you, because if depression or relationships or brain training or I don't know what you know, and ultimately I'll talk to people for free for 15 minutes if they sign, up. So that's it Mind strength balance. Thank you very much Thank you very much.
Speaker 1:For those listening who feel stuck, whether in their mental, emotional, spiritual growth, what is one simple yet powerful practice that they can start today to begin to shift the reality?
Speaker 2:Oh, that makes that. That tickles the uh. The Joker in me takes psychedelics.
Speaker 1:You know they're becoming legal.
Speaker 2:I know, but actually I'm not an I'm not a broad spectrum encouraging person with psychedelics. Um, I think psychedelics are great to learn about, but they're not always. I mean work, meditate, yeah, that kind of falls on deaf ears or go into your dreams, but then people don't want to.
Speaker 1:Lincoln I need something good.
Speaker 2:I'll tell you what.
Speaker 1:Go out for walks that's great advice yeah, go out for walks go for a walk, get reconnected with the earth, the electromagnetic field. Go out for a walk, that's great advice.
Speaker 2:Like Socrates or somebody said if you have a problem, go for a walk, and if you haven't solved your problem, go for another walk.
Speaker 1:Yeah, go touch grass guys, yeah, yeah, no, I try to get out every day, every day.
Speaker 2:That's perfect. That is perfect. I'm looking outside, I'm like I try to get out every day.
Speaker 1:Every day. It's perfect In a shine. That is perfect. I'm looking outside. I'm like I see the snow, but I am trying to get outside more. That's great, great advice, because when things get too, you just need to decompress and breathe.
Speaker 2:Some time to think. You need some time to feel and think yes.
Speaker 1:Absolutely Well, Lincoln.
